Greetings, everyone.  My name is Stephen A. Brown.

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IsoThermally yours,
Stephen A. Brown

Stephen

From your previous postings I see you are in the initial stages of researching the possibility of starting your own thermography business. A few words of advice from somebody that has done it twice (and not because we are based in the same state).

1.    Thermography has been performed here in the US for more then 20 years commercially as an NDT service. It is well entrenched with a large number of service providers who have established client basis.  You will have to compete not only on technology (i.e. 99% clients do not care if you have a 640x480 detector or a 160x120) but price and added value (skills and experience) and effectively take on your local competition for their client base.

2.    With the reduction in the prices if technology a large number of manufacturing companies, utilities and even builders  have brought the technology in house. Your potential client base may be very sparse to start with and getting smaller. You should estimate 1 x survey a week for the first 12 - 18 month (being very optimistic).

3.   The same reduction of startup cost has meant that more people are getting into the market on a daily basis and squeezing inspection rates, fighting your for that bit of the pie. You are going to have to charge less than you think. The going rate is between $800 - $1000 a day for an electrical inspection but Joe will take $400 just to get in the door...

Now do the math. In your neck of the woods (remember traveling adds expense) can you say that you will have 52 x $950 = $49,400.00 worth of business? This is just your turnover you have not re-paid your imager your laptop, your vehicle, your insurance, your marketing bill, your accountant or yourself! Remember that every day you are performing an inspection  you are not out getting new clients and if you hire somebody to perform the survey work or sales calls you are going to need to pay them.

If you open the yellow pages and there is nobody in Mid Missouri providing a thermography service this may be an opportunity or there may simply be too little demand to sustain anybody?

The reality is that the technology is very sexy however in my opinion the heyday of making mega bucks as a freelance thermographer are long gone unless you have the killer application or you find other services to add to your  business. Take a look on ebay at the number of  used imagers there are. Yes some are from companies but a lot of from people that thought getting into thermography was a sure thing to find that they  not make it work.

 

   

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Rory Paul
Independent Level II Thermographer
Barak Systems
www.baraksystems.com

I concur with Rory. There is a lot of us thermographers and more coming. When I was in business by myself for two years I kept my regular job for the first year and a half.  In my state there is only two of us that have a service. You have to go out and talk to people in your area to see if there is an interest in the service. A lot of your bigger companies have the service all ready in house like Paul said or some other big outfit might have the contract to do all of there buildings. It is very hard to make a living just on building diagnostics alone. This being heat audits, moisture, envelope of buildings, and infloor heat scans.  I know it is very hard to raise working capital to keep a float for the time you need to raise you business to the point that you can run on it alone. I am very lucky I have a business adviser that has helped me with everything to get started.  He does all my paper work for me and has set up spread sheets to keep all my numbers in line. If you want I can send you the template that I use. You punch in your numbers for each job and all your expenses and it takes in every thing and gives you your Federal taxes you have to pay. Remember going into business by your self you have to pay the other part of the Federal taxes that your current employer pas now so you pay double the taxes. It is a very good industry to get into I see the next ten to fifteen years being very exciting as the technology gets better and other technology’s coming together. I would start off slow like Rory said most companies don’t care if you have a high resolution camera. There are plenty of cameras that are around that $10,000 range that will work just fine for you. What is the sense of having two or three cameras unless you are going to have employees. If you are going to have employees you will need a lot more than $150,000 to get started. I hope you do good in you venture and you can get a hold of me by emailing me. 

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Jeremy Kays Reliability Technician
Level II IR, MCA Level I, In Compliance with the ASNT guidelines
The Snell Group
jkays@thesnellgroup.com
http://www.thesnellgroup.com

I wish you good luck with your quest, if you do find someone willing to invest in a business at concept stage in a competitive market will you please let me have his name?

Your business proposal sound very good, and I do genuinely wish you gook luck with it. However, if you are going to buy three cameras as you suggest, then you will need staff, vehicles, training etc for three people. The question you need to ask yourself is, "How much can I afford to loose, and for how long?" If I were you I would go back and do the numbers again, before you find your investor.

 By the way I do know of more than one thermography company that has attracted serious financial investment in the last few years, but they were established companies, not startups. I think this is going to be difficult.

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Bob Berry
BINDT, IRT Level 3 EL, Level 3 CV (ISO 18436)
Thermal Vision
8 Old Fair Green
Dunboyne
Co Meath
Ireland
bob@thermalvision.ie
www.thermalvision.ie

Bob Berry:

I wish you good luck with your quest, if you do find someone willing to invest in a business at concept stage in a competitive market will you please let me have his name?

--> I will most certainly divulge this information if I am able. 

Your business proposal sound very good, and I do genuinely wish you gook luck with it. However, if you are going to buy three cameras as you suggest, then you will need staff, vehicles, training etc for three people. The question you need to ask yourself is, "How much can I afford to loose, and for how long?" If I were you I would go back and do the numbers again, before you find your investor.

-->I am going to buy one, high definition camera, and two, lower-resolution cameras for only myself.  Also, the questions are "What do I need to do the job right the first time, how much do I need to provide for myself and my family while I'm doing what I desire and to free up my Mind, Mental Faculties, and Reasoning Prowess  enough so that I can Think and Apply properly, and how fast can I get from Training to Practice.  Never, Never, Never Underfund!!!

-->Ultra conservative banks may be focusing on loss.  I avoid those like the plague and would advise you to do the same, provided you desire any success worthy of mention.  Instead, Focus On Prosperity.

By the way I do know of more than one thermography company that has attracted serious financial investment in the last few years, but they were established companies, not startups. I think this is going to be difficult.

-->I think it is going to be a piece of cake, myself.  I'll let you know when I come out on top.  I have a strong drive to succeed!  I have a deep, burning, yearning, raw-edged gnawing desire to make seen the unseen.  This so we may advance our understanding of 'what is out there.'  I believe that all Science is based on this one, yawing chasm of desire:  To Make The Unknown, Known!  Also understood as:  "The Killing of the Fear."

Best regards,

Stephen A. Brown
 

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IsoThermally yours,
Stephen A. Brown

Stephen,

I've been biting my tongue watching this rediculous strand grow.  Bob Berry, Rory Paul both gentlemen I've never met but respect have offered you serious & direct advice.  You are setting yourself up for failure my friend, you may have ambition but no understanding of this business. It will be months before your phone will ring & I look forward to buying one of your camera(s) on ebay for pennies on the dollar.

JG

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Jeff Gadd
Vision Infrared Services
www.visioninfrared.com

Uh, perhaps I came off that last post a little strong.  Sorry if I got a little self-aggrandizing there.  Condition of the moment, I guess.

I'm not "pie in the sky," Jeff, and I do respect the advice given me here.  I'm really rather conservative, but I do experience the aspect of people not really understanding what I'm planning to do.  Assumptions are fine, but they're not necessarily truth.

I'm not going to employ anyone, that is not my goal.  I've already stated my uses for my equipment, so I need not be redundant here.

If I can not obtain funding for what I want initially, I will buy one medium-resolution camera and start with that.  I'm not completely daft, sir!

Oh, and if you have any *funding source information*--which is what this post is about, really--please feel free to post any sources you consider legitimate.  I'll go from there.

 
Thank you for your constructive criticism.  I will take it to heart.

 

Warm regards,

Stephen A. Brown
 

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IsoThermally yours,
Stephen A. Brown

As I said, I do genuinely wish you good luck with this. There is certainly nothing wrong with your confidence, and that will be a big help when meeting potential investors.

If I was looking at investing I would want to know why three cameras and one operator. You should prepare an answer for the investors.

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Bob Berry
BINDT, IRT Level 3 EL, Level 3 CV (ISO 18436)
Thermal Vision
8 Old Fair Green
Dunboyne
Co Meath
Ireland
bob@thermalvision.ie
www.thermalvision.ie

Stephen,

Contact SCORE for small business planning information.  They are an invaluable resource.  You will need a well thought out and written business plan just to borrow money for a startup.  You will need much more than that before anyone would consider a grant. 

If you are serious about this, spend the next three months doing research and developing your plan.  At that point, if it still makes sense to you and your counselors, you should begin to seek your funding.

Good Luck,

 Dave Maschke
 

 

Hi Stephen,

I believe you'll find that getting into this business is a lot like getting into many other businesses.  It will take twice as long as you think and will cost twice as much as you think.  Seems to be a common trend.  I agree with Rory, you really need to look at your area and get a good idea of the business there.  Have you contacted potential customers and discussed their needs?  Are they interested in working with you on a project or ongoing basis?  Do you have an attorney, accountant, marketing professional, business plan and $25,000 of your own start up capital?  An investor is going to want to see these things.  I would recommend that you specifically target your market.  Trying to chase too many customer types will dilute your efforts and it's way too expensive to market to multiple segments.

Good luck,

Tom Ochsner

Thermal Vision

This reply is a bit late in coming, but here it is, bringing this thread up to date, and active once again.

Sage advice.

 

I am still interested in doing this, and, after having read and re-read through the posts in this thread, have sobered up and decided to do just what is advised.

I'm taking it slow, still looking, and working toward going to an IR training center--or satellite--to learn about this fascinating industry firsthand from industry experts.

I will keep adding things as I become more proficient. No need to rush.  All I have is time.

Stephen--January 8, 2008



 

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IsoThermally yours,
Stephen A. Brown

Why focus on the camera resolution?

I think you should look at the function, what you are able to do with the camera.
What info can you provide in the image during inspektion?
Will it have a good software to generate reports? or do you need to purchase that also?
Use of extern display?
Video output?
Can you change the lens?
Resolution is important, but function is more important.

Use only one camera, several cameras will only get you confuse as every one is different in handling and function.
It is easier to be expert on one camera than on 3.

Take some training before camera purchase and get better understanding for what you need.
I think you will update your desissions.

Best regards
Hans

Replies In Body of Original Message, Quoted Below:

HansL:

Why focus on the camera resolution? --> Because the higher the resolution, the sharper an image will appear when at a distance.  Some applications will require that I be at a distance.  The larger and more sensitive the CCD for the Visual Camera as well as the IR sensor portion of the camera is--as well as the Glass--the better the resolution will be.

I think you should look at the function, what you are able to do with the camera. --> I am looking at all camera features.  Functionality *is* important to me.  Resolution is also important.  To me, both must be considered together.  The FLIR B400 and T400 cameras are looking promising.

What info can you provide in the image during inspektion?  --> As much as possible.  I also desire this function.  The more I can do with the on-camera image, the more I can provide to the customer, individual, or group, or myself.

Will it have a good software to generate reports? or do you need to purchase that also? --> Most cameras I've found come with decent report generation software.  I am also researching this feature. The Wuhan Guide M4/RAZ-IR Pro comes with free reporting software.

Use of extern display? --> If you mean, "can I hook it up to an external monitor," then Yes.  Realtime Digital Recording is my most pressing need, with regard to keeping a real time moving record of the IR experience.

Video output? --> I will desire this feature, and expect it to be relatively painless in setup and ease-of-use.

Can you change the lens? --> I will desire this feature.  Even the smallest camera I have been looking at--the Land/Wuhan Guide M4 (a/k/a as the RAZ-IR Pro in the United States), has available lenses.

Resolution is important, but function is more important. --> Both are important, and must be considered together.  Case In Point:  I purchased a BlackBerry 8830 from Verizon Wireless.  Verizon's CDMA EVDO digital cell phone network it top-notch in speed, clarity, and ease-of-use.  However, Verizon disabled--at the firmware (software-on-chip) level--the interal GPS function of the phone.  I use GPS intensively, and without that function available natively, I was unable to use my mapping and location information software with the 8830, disrupting my user experience significantly.  (The GPS on the 8830 *is* native; Sprint, Alltel, and U.S. Cellular--the other primary CDMA Carriers in the U.S.A.--all use the 8830 and don't disable the native GPS feature of that particular phone.)

Summarizing the above:  Even though Verizon's network sounds great, I am now happier with a T-Mobile BlackBerry 8800 I traded even-up for my 8830 with the non-functional GPS.  T-Mobile's network is reasonable where I am going to be, so it's a win-win situation.  I liken the network quality equivalent--for this argument--to IR Camera Resolution, and the GPS feature akin to the Functionality Concern.  Obviously, I have erred on the side of Functionality.  Be that as it may, sometimes Resolution will have to win out over function, if that feature is paramount to what I desire to accomplish.  I believe there are enough camera choices out there to provide both at the desirable levels I am seeking.
 

Use only one camera, several cameras will only get you confuse as every one is different in handling and function.
It is easier to be expert on one camera than on 3. --> Confused? I don't get confused over technology.  Being able to effectively operate different cameras at once is not a problem, not to me, anyway.  I routinely use both GNU/Linux and Windows XP on any particular computer I happen to own at any given time.  Multitasking with any IR equipment is not going to confuse me.

Most importantly to me:  If used for the business modality, then why use multiple cameras?  One word:  REDUNDANCY!  Think in terms of needing your equipment up and running all the time.  Case-in-point.  Our hotel's SQL Database Server went down this morning, due to a bad power supply.  It was looking grim for a while, but as it so happens, the hotel had a spare server.  I was able to use the old server's power supply and reboot the system.  What would've happened if we hadn't happened to have had that spare part?  Chaos, pure chaos!

If I go into business, this is the bottom line:  I Will Have More Than One Camera.  Period!  Two At The Very Minimum!  If one camera goes bad, I will be able to effectively use the other one(s).  If I'm going to make a monetary living with IR, I follow the old adage:  "If you wanna play, you gotta pay!"  Works for me.

Take some training before camera purchase and get better understanding for what you need.
I think you will update your desissions.  --> I appreciate this suggestion.  If I decide that I am going to use IR camera technology for anything but a hobby type of purpose, then perhaps I will get some type of certification.  If I do decide to go into business then this will, of course, be the route I take.  Now I do like to be sociable with people of the same interests.  Lord knows I have enough trouble finding anything useful locally.  At length, I'm going to have to travel to St. Louis or Kansas City to find any type of IR training.  Why can't anyone have classes in the Capital in Jefferson City or north, in Columbia, Missouri, halfway between Kansas City and St. Louis, right on the I-70 corridor?

Best regards
Hans

-->Thanks for the reply, Hans.  Be well.

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IsoThermally yours,
Stephen A. Brown

To answer your original question, there are no such things as federal or state grants to start a small business.  Best thing to do is check with you state energy and enviromental departments to see if there are any incentives for such business.  but for funding you are stck with 3 options, home equity loan, personal loan, or business loan..  Good luck.  Also if you gave started by now, give us an update on how things are going..

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Dave Price
J&D Thermography
Peru, NY
david.o.price@gmail.com
(518)335-9474