Brad,

I used both cameras (Fluke TiR and Flir BCAM SE) for a couple of hours on the job.  The Fluke TiR has the better picture, higher resolution and more functions then the Flir BCAM SE. But the Flir BCAM SE has the better ergonmics. I could barely hold the Fluke steady after 20 minutes operation. Batterie life on the Flir is better. When is Fluke coming with a new product? I may wait a bit. ...  now we have spring weather in NY and there is not enough delta-T to use any of these products anyway...

 

BKSolutionsllc:

Brad,

I used both cameras (Fluke TiR and Flir BCAM SE) for a couple of hours on the job.  The Fluke TiR has the better picture, higher resolution and more functions then the Flir BCAM SE. But the Flir BCAM SE has the better ergonmics. I could barely hold the Fluke steady after 20 minutes operation. Batterie life on the Flir is better. When is Fluke coming with a new product? I may wait a bit. ...  now we have spring weather in NY and there is not enough delta-T to use any of these products anyway...

 

BK, did you try the B40 or B50.  I know the B50 is getting a little more expensive but the resolution would be more comparable to the TiR, 160x120 and 140x140 is basically the same.  The B40 is a newer camera than the Bcam so you might want to check that out.  Both the B40 and B50 have on unit emissivity correction.  That is one negative to the TiR, you can still do it in the software but I find most people would rather do it in the field.

Just as my previous post stated, you really should consider taking level I training before purchasing a camera.  If you are serious about getting in to infrared you are going to take the training anyway.

Jason Kaylor – JJ
VP of Sales
877/207-1244
AC Tool Supply
Fluke Thermal Imagers
FLIR Thermal Imagers
HotShot Hi-Rez Infrared Cameras

Fluke TiR1 Resources

FLIR B60 Resources

Retrotec Duct & Blower Door

 

BK, Jason is correct.  Although the BCAM SD is a very good camera with very nice ergonomics, it is a much less expensive earlier model camera.  The B40-50 are the comparable models to the TiR and have more features, jpeg storage, accurate emmissivity correction, etc..   Of course I am biased but all I suggest is that you compare "like" models before you buy.   You'll be pleasantly surprised. 

 

---

Brad Risser
FLIR Systems
866-837-3244

Brad and Jason,

I think BCAM does the trick for me, but time will tell...I may wait a bit before I buy. 

90% of my time I run the blower door and search for leaks. That's all I need an IR camera for. If I need picture in picture I can do that with another software. I agree the B40, B50 and the TiR have much better picture quality to analyze on site or on PC, but I don't thinks I need that. My customers get the EnergyStar /NYSERDA report which is showing BTU's and return on investment, based on energy savings. I don't need a camera to sell thermo imaging services. I only need to quickly find air leaks and bypass locations in the building structure.

I am very reluctant to spend more then 5K and to see that the same camera is worth 50% less in 1 year. The BCAM was $6999 not so long ago and now I can get one for less then $3500.

I agree about the training and I may wait until I buy my own camera. In the mean time I share a BCAM with an other contractor.  

When does Flir and Fluke have their new releases? Is it spring or fall?

Kind regards,

Bernhard

   

I have been using a TIR with and without a blower door for a year steady.  I love it.  I also have a BCAM SD at my disposal, and alway chose the TIR.  I like the image clarity, as well as the fusion.  I don't think you can beat it.  I bought mine a year ago, and haven't had a single issue with it.  Fluke makes great, quality stuff.  Oh yeah I have no problem finding air leakage all year long.  As long as you have 3 degree difference in temp. from inside and out you are good with this IR.

Again, this is comparing apples and oranges.    Not apples to apples.  

---

Brad Risser
FLIR Systems
866-837-3244

Bernard,

There is no set time when the camera manufacturers come out with new models.  It varies based on technology improvements, etc..      I am not aware of any new releases coming out at this time.   The BCAM will be perfect tool for you in the meantime.    Good luck in your business endeavors.

---

Brad Risser
FLIR Systems
866-837-3244

BKSolutionsllc,

I think the resale value of cameras right now is more about the sign of the times than the cameras themselves. I see higher end FLIR cameras that are upwards of 2 years old that are still selling for 75% of their original cost.  FLIR has done an amazing job with marketing their products to the newer markets of construction related businesses over the past years, and I think that is maybe why you see more for sale, and for slightly lower prices.  I very rarely see any Fluke cameras for sale for less than 75% of their original selling price. 

Point is if you are waiting for newer models to come out at much lower prices I doubt you are going to see that.  Yes, just like any other technology they drop in price over time, but cameras are not really like PC's in the fact that they are outdated in a year and sell for 15% of their original selling price.  As far as what they have in the pipeline, FLIR just revamped their line of cameras that fall in to this line, so I would be surprised if you see any newer models for ahwile.  Fluke has had very good success with the TiR and TiR1, you might see some upgrades to those units, but I would doubt you see any major overhaul for ahwile.

You might want to call FLIR directly if you are in the market for a used camera.  Their site is www.goinfrared.com.  Some where on their site they have a listing for their used camera department.  Personally I would feel more comfortable buying a used one directly from the manufacture or a qualified distributor.  I believe Snell also has an inventory of used cameras.  I would be a little leary spending even a few hundred dollars on flea bay let alone a high end piece of tech equipment. 

As a side note, one of our customers just upgraded his camera and has a Testo 880 for sale that is less than 2 months old.  I think he only took a handful of pictures with it.  If you are interested in that, email me at jason@aikencolon.com and I will give you his contact information. 

Jason Kaylor – JJ
VP of Sales
877/207-1244
AC Tool Supply
Fluke Thermal Imagers
FLIR Thermal Imagers
HotShot Hi-Rez Infrared Cameras

Fluke TiR1 Resources

FLIR B60 Resources

Retrotec Duct & Blower Door

Phoenix AZ Arizona Infrared

 

 

 

The ToughCam EL would be an excellent choice for your type of work - It has the only 270° rotating HD LCD screen, is lightweight, rugged, and will auto adjust the image to remain upright even if the camera is upside down.

Call me if you have any questions, we would be happy to answer any questions you might have..  

1-866-861-0788

Also the Fluke TiR is an excellent choice, but the accuracy is shameful - which may not be an issue for you if you are less interested in "real" temperature values than just being able to "see" thermal differences.

Fluke TiR Accuracy: ±5°C or 5% (whichever is greater)

Industry standard (all ICI cameras) is Accuracy: ±2°C or 2% (whichever is greater)

 

Thanks,

---

Gary Strahan
Infrared Cameras Inc.

In response to the NEC F30....Mikron Infrared has that same camera, renamed in the US as the Mikroshot.  As far as weight, IR cameras don't get much lighter (300 grams).  I carry mine along with my cell phone in a soft case on my belt loop.  It looks like a digital camera and operates very much like one.  I would be glad to have one of our reps contact you and bring a Mikroshot out for you to try.  There is also a new version of the Mikroshot called the "B" version that has twice the thermal sensitivity and is still ultra portable.  Granted, Mikron has several camera models to fit the needs of nearly any thermographer at a variety of price points.  In all fairness, I would say Flir (I worked at Flir several years) and Fluke have good products as well.  I frankly don't run into other camera brands in the areas I cover. 

 I think it really comes down to ease of use, size and cost when it comes to building inspections.  As long as the thermal sensitivity is 100mk or less and resolution is at least 160x120....the other three factors would be my main concerns.  The Mikroshot series are all priced at less than $5,000.  You can view the Mikroshot at www.mikroshot.com.  Hope that helps.

Gary Gouvas - Mikron Infrared

---

Gary Gouvas
Regional Sales Manager - Mikron Infrared
16 Thornton Road
Oakland, NJ 07436
270-547-8856
www.mikroninfrared.com

Yes, the TIR temp. is only +/- 5 deg.C, but the actual temperature is usually not as important as the temperature difference, which is the thermal sensitivity. The TIR has twice the field of view of the ToughCam EL. The ToughCam EL has a higher temp. range (250 deg.C vs. 100 deg.C), The specs refer to "one-point" temperature measurement, but what does that mean. What I don't find for the ToughCam EL: how many palettes? Is thermal span automatic? manual? What is the minimium span?, etc.  The refresh rate for the TiR is slower than the ToughCam EL.

When comparing IF cameras, do the same as you do when you do an energy audiit: look at the whole picture. Look at ALL of the specs and features when comparing.

I bought the Fluke TiR2-FT when it first came out two years ago. I paid almost $13,000. I don't regret it. I caught the beginning of the image fusion wave. That technology is now standard on many cameras, even the low end ones. I don't think that cameras are going to change that much until the next discovery. It is like computers. going from Pentium III to IV was a big jump, then dual-core processing. There have not been any big changes to computers in a few years. Speed gets faster each year, but in much smaller increments than say 5 or 6 years ago.

As for using a camera with blower doors, no matter how much air you can move, you still need that minimum of 3-5 degrees F. to "see" the air. In the summer, you have to also be careful about where you are looking. If you are pulling in air from the attic, it could show as warmer than inside (when it is cooler outside). That could mask an area where you are sucking in air from both inside and outside, such as at an eave. The IR can quickly help to pinpoint where the leaks are comng in, but it does not quantify the air leakage. I have been using TIR with my blower door for two years now, and the only big advantage it has is with cathedral ceilings or any where I would have to set up a ladder to check for air leaks.

 

 

---

Brad Cook
Building Performance Services LLC
Warren, Vermont
Level I Thermographer
Home Performance Contractor

Fixitron,

The Fluke TIR actually compares to our ToughCam PRO better.  Similar specifications as the EL but with 1000 image storage, 21.1° x 15.8° FOV, 60 second voice annotation, 50-60Hz refresh rate (HD), etc.  The ToughCam EL comes with 3 palettes, the Pro comes with 11 palettes.  

The thermal span/gain is automatic or manual for both models. Both cameras come with our ICI Reporter software and fused images are easy via our software program.

 

 I am not sure what you mean by minimium span, but you can set an isotherm for 1° temperature so any combination from 1° to maximimum can be set.

The EL has only one temperature measurement spot, meaning it can only measure temperature in one spot or area at a time.  The Pro has 4 temperature measurement spots, meaning you can have up to 4 seperate spots or areas measuring temperature at one time and these can be set to auto track and/or alarm.

The TIR has <100 mK NETD, the EL has <60 mK NETD, and the Pro has <60 mK NETD.  They are almost twice as sensitive as the Fluke TIR.  Want more sensitivity?  With our Prodigy you can get a medical calibration bringing the sensitivity to <38 mK (Perhaps the most sensitive IR camera in the world?)  With a High Defiinition video output you can get some smoking images off the Prodigy.

While we like Fluke and Flir products and believe they make good infrared cameras (we know, we used to sell their products), we know our cameras are less expensive, with the same or better features about 9 out of 10 times.  As we build, design, and manufacture our own cameras, we can completely customize our cameras to match any application in the world.

All of our cameras (except 1) come with video output in 50/60 Hz or High Definition, which make them the obvious choice for television productions, etc.  This is why MonsterQuest loves our ToughCam PRO!

Hope I answered all your questions, but if not you can always give us a call at 1 866 861 0788 (toll free USA)

Thanks,

 

---

Gary Strahan
Infrared Cameras Inc.

The Fluke TiR has a 70mK NETD, 1200 fully radiometric image storage capacity, four (4) color palettes, can withstand a 6' drop and has a two (2) year warranty. 

It appears to me that if the Toughcam EL was dropped or the 270* viewfinder was snagged on a electric panel door, that it would turn into a 360*+ viewfinder rather quickly.

 

Any LCD screen has a chance to break when dropped, but unlike the Fluke, you can close the LCD screen flush to the camera to help prevent this.  Also it comes with a wrist strap that should prevent any accidental drops.  The camera body is also drop rated and has environmental protection of IP54.

In all the years we have been selling these, we have only had 2 LCD screens break from dropping - out of 100's sold yearly.  So I can see where you may be considering this as a potential problem, but the reality is that it has never been a problem.   At least it isn't more of a problem than dropping any camera with a LCD screen.

I have used several cameras over the past few years and prefer the 270° rotating LCD over all the others because it is extremely easy to use for building inspections where you sometimes need to point the camera into a crawlspace, vent, or other area and the other cameras only allow you to make a image blindly while doing this, the Toughcam allows you to see exactly where you need to, and will keep the image right side up.  For inspecting buildings I have found this an immensely useful feature.

According to Fluke, the TIR has a Thermal sensitivity (NETD)  ≤ 0.1 °C at 30 °C (100 mK), while both ToughCam's are nearly twice as sensitive at <60 mK.  I believe you are referring to the TIR1 - which is a sub 7k camera and compares to our ToughCam Pro at the same price.

Here are the TIR specifications: http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/Fluke+TiR.htm

Unlike Fluke, our warranties are extendable and transferrable - so you can sell it and have it still covered under warranty for the next user.  We also do not have properitary batteries (replacements can be purchased at radio shack or wal-mart).  Our software is included with the price and has no limitations on upgrades, reinstalls, or multiple users - allow you to install it where and when you need it on any computer, without paying for seperate licenses.  ToughCam EL is under 5k, the Pro is under 7k

At 9Hz you are basically running 9 fps, a standard definition TV runs at 24 fps  - High Definition runs at 50/60 Hz- The ToughCam outputs HD video in 50/60 Hz.  A must for anyone needing real time video for viewing or recording.

Software is included, Fused Images, Visible Light Camera, etc.

 I know I am slightly biased here, but still have not seen a sub 5k infrared camera that compares to the ToughCam EL  -

Still not sure?

Rent a ToughCam for a week and if you purchase it we will drop the rental fee, a little try before you buy. 

Interested in purchasing? 

Mention that I referred you, and receive $200 off any of our thermal imaging cameras.

Thanks for your time!

---

Gary Strahan
Infrared Cameras Inc.